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Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:55 am
by Dave M
The multipliers are (almost) exactly what I suggested in the original post ( I made the long durational cast multiplier 30% instead of 50%). Here they are again:

Temporary Item classes:

0. A single charge temporary item is (100%) of base cost
1. Alchemical potion should be (80%) of base cost - harder to use than temp items.
2. Self only Scrolls should be (120%) of base cost - rarer
3. "Other" Scrolls should be (80%) of base cost - harder to use
4. Getting long durational spells (11 day/43 day casts) would have a cost: (30%) the base cost

per day vs per week/multiple charges
5. A 1 per week item should be worth 500% the base cost
6. A 1 per day item should be worth 800% the base

Additional item charges each cost (75%) of first charge
All items have a number of dragons equal to the level/rank of the spell added to their price.
Permanent items have an additional fixed cost: 3 gold - (the cost of ensorcelling/empowering a trinket?)


The base values were created just as a starting point and need discussing. The principle I used was that there would be a jump in price at rank 5.

At Rob's suggestion I reduced them a little from what I suggested in the original post to what you see in the tables. Perhaps a little too much.


Re item access I don't think we need more than 2 tiers of prices if we are restricting access to them anyway. Do you agree? One for common spells/invocations and one for rarer spells/invocations with guild restricted access.

tier 1: standard/advanced magic, standard path
tier 2: additional spells/primary school, sect/specialist sect (guild members only)

Primary school can buy items of their school at tier 1 prices. By the same token sect members should be able to buy items of their own sect at tier 1 prices.

*I think it would be better to make purist items harder to acquire rather than more expensive. How about purists can buy purist spells from their own school at standard prices, and only primary school can buy them at tier 2 prices, so in your example a battle purist won't be running round with fire purist items that she bought.

Here are item costs for tier 2 items with them costing 50% more than standard ones.
Screen shot 2014-10-28 at 09.54.34.png

(the formula adds a fixed +1 dragon so they always cost at least one more than the equivalent standard item).

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:14 pm
by AnthonyK
Thanks for that Dave

The reduction in lower levels I feel actually is good idea, people may purchase something cheap to use around lv 0-2 and if they don't well no one does now so its not breaking anything.

Whilst there is a fairly chunky drop in price on scrolls and potions at Lv4 for 1 shot items that aren't pop and ping I don't see that as a massive negative.

But I do think the level 5 stuff has dropped too far, the benefit of a lv 5 in a potion or scroll is significant. That cost impact then goes on to the higher levels increasing the deductions impact

the premium for a temp item over a scroll needs to be higher
im not sure if Im miss understanding but a lv 4 temp item is 14 dragons, a 2 charge is 21 that's 7 dragons but 75% of 14 is 10.5

I can see where your going with the 2 teir idea and whilst having 2 teirs seems like a simple solution in reality you end up with one hydra of a decision tree. Any request that comes in requests double checking and delving, it would not be easy to explain in words or text and again comes away from the simple table your price is X.

Currently the table is looking at 1 set of prices, probably because you setup a calculation then I asked for a base cost to show though the values, looking at it do we need the few dragons difference in power and magic costs?
Off that back of this Inks would need to be looked at as well as herbal potions.

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:32 pm
by Dave M
So to clarify the 14 dragons is for a rarer item such as a cause major disease.

It's price is calculated by (Base value*raremultiplier*itemtypemultiplier) + rank + 1


A double charge item is the the same but with (base value*rare modifier*temp item multiplier*75%) added on.
14 + (6*150%*100%*75%) = 21

Does that make sense?

I agree there should be more of a jump at 5.

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:12 pm
by Dave M
I agree we definitely don't need different prices for power and magic items, unless there is a good IC reason for it. They are equivalent in their powerfulness.

Scrolls shouldn't be too much cheaper in my opinion. Anything non combat/long durational is just as good in scroll form (assuming you can read it), and if you have scroll making you get it further discounted. Also for offensive spells/invocations you can (generally) safely read it before running in. So they definitely have a niche. Self only scrolls should be more expensive as they are the only way to get certain spells/invocations... do you agree?

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:38 pm
by AnthonyK
I agree on the self onlys

as for the discount there should be more of a one. Yep if you stand out of the way and read your scroll nice and safe et al its not too much different
but if you dont read runes, are backed up against a wall being beaten, in the dark, get hit buy something ranged then its really not as good and when you start getting more expensive scrolls you really don't want to fluff it.
items are un fluffable, potions take a little time but are fairly unfluffable

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:51 pm
by Dave M
Actually yeah, as temp items get a discount on extra charges too. Maybe too much of a discount. 90% of base instead of 80 as currently perhaps?

OK lets say a little cheaper than potions. Scrolls are currently working on 80% of base value compared to 80% for potions and 100% for temp. Lets say 70%?

For base multipliers for 5-10 how about:

5: x16
6: x18
7: x20
8: x35
9: x40
10: x50

So 5s and 6s are pushed up in price, 7s are about right. 8s are also given a jump in price to get sorcery level.

Agreed? If so I'll stick up revised tables for further scrutiny

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:57 pm
by AnthonyK
rather than a drop for scrolls id like to see a raise for temps

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:35 am
by Dave M
This would make them more expensive in comparison to permanent items too. I was quite happy with their relative values but lets see how it looks

(Increasing the cost for extra charges to 90% per additional charge would be a stealth increase to their prices too).

So scrolls 80%, potions 90%, temp 110%, self scrolls 120% I'll stick up the revised tables tonight.


As a side topic, Ruth was against my pricing up 11/43 day durational casts. Her arguments were IC ones:

1. Sorcerers/high priests use most/all their slots in training/scrying/enchanting/scroll writing etc.
2. High priests would quickly end up constantly power out.
3. The keep demands long durationals for use on patrols/auxiliaries already - there's not enough sorcerers left to meet quotas as it is.
4. These are high ranking guild members - they are far too important - and have better things to be doing (like leading their sect/important research/rituals etc.)
5. There is no precedent for buying long durationals therefore there must be reasons (like the ones above) why not.

Your thoughts?

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:57 am
by Trebor
Anthony, I disagree about increasing the cost of temps - temporary items should be cheap and low value. A clear indication of this is that when we sort out loot, any combat level temporary items are disregarded in terms of deducting cash - they are not given a high value by the party or in general. Obviously high level temporary items are much more valuable but then the prices already reflect that...

Re: Temporary/Permanent Item costs

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:14 pm
by AnthonyK
Ruth has a fair point but it may be use full to have the values somewhere even if marked as exceptional/average service sold in the iron league or something else for guidance for players/refs?

@rob I'm not talking a massive increase but the alternative is as Dave suggested a decrease for scrolls and potions which apart from a slight differentiation between potion and scroll cost I think are roughly right a lv 4 spell/inv for less than 10 dragons is going too low